Ready everyone? OK. Who described Hugo Chávez as a “deceitful and divisive president who lacked the resolve to organize himself politically and militarily”?
Give up?
The answer’s here. And boy, the words “read the whole thing” were invented for that link.
Great fun, isn’t it? It’s nice to know Chávez wasn’t any more trustworthy or competent in helping out FARC than he’s been at just governing in general.
I’d quibble with the characterization of López Sisco as an opposition member, though: that sounds much more like a bit of intramural Disip grudge-settling by proxy.
And the bit about FARC training pro-Chávez groups in 23 de Enero might have been more surprising if it hadn’t been for this shit. I mean let’s get real for a moment, they haven’t precisely been subtle about it.
There’s a ton of material here. If you’d like, you can read the whole whole thing (but you have to pay for it.)
loved the article. All I can say is que bárbaro! this guy is unbelieveable. Why would you mess with the FARC only to double-cross them time and again? you lose both ways. It´s a fact that credibility is not something Chavez regards very highly.
Jaw dropping from start to finish…
I am not sure we will be able to verify each and all of those accusations, but they do not surprise me at all.
Alí’s obsession with getting training from different groups for “the day after” is well-known.
The FARC was made up of mad idealists and psychos who turned into simple criminals believing to have still some form of idealism. The extreme left in Venezuela infiltrated for decades the Venezuelan military believing it was the only way to gain to power and that is what they got but now they cannot control their own creation, Chavismo. They know they have no other chance ever to be so close to power unless they go on with Chavismo and swallow to it.
Chavismo knows it cannot do without the unconventional war know-how from the extreme left (provocation, guerrilla work) nor can it prosper without using the ideological framework/propaganda offered by that extreme left less it be seen as a purely “military dictatorship”.
I find it funny that even such bloody criminals as the FARC guys consider Rodríguez Chacín just creepy. I have often wondered what former guerrilleros like Soto think when they see people like Rodríguez Chacín on their side. Some decades ago they were shooting at each other (apart from shooting at innocent civilians)
The more I think about it, the more I think the Headline is just wrong for the article.
It’s a bit of an occupational hazard for journalists, the off-key headline. And it’s one of those things readers just don’t seem to grasp at all: journos don’t write the headlines to their own stories!! Headline writing is like a whole separate profession – and the people writing the headlines are usually under crazy-tight deadlines and normally won’t be great experts in what the article is about.
I guess this is all a hold-over from the pre-computer days, when headlines had to be made to fit into pre-determined spaces on the page and it was impracticable to let journos write the headlines to their own pieces. And I certainly know the frustration of working really hard on a piece and then seeing it go out under a misconceived headline.
In this case, the headline really is confusing. It makes it sound like the government had a systematic arrangement to get FARC to bump off its political enemies.
What the text shows is something totally different: sure sounds like the government’s contacts with FARC were trying to get them to do some of their dirty work for them.
But settling old scores by killing López Sisco and maybe one other person isn’t turning FARC into Chávez’s de facto death squads! It’s a key distinction, and the headline blurs it…
I agree, I also don’t think the purported assassination of Chavez’s opponents is all that important. It’s the extensive, high-level links that’s newsworthy here.
And yeah, Kepler, I almost choked on my coffee with the Rodríguez Chacín quote. Failing to meet the standards of el Mono Jojoy, imagine that.
Count me in the “had to clean the screen off” club.
Rodriguez Chacin is in an exclusive club, even murdering thugs think he’s a POS.
Vergation!
You guys must also believe in the veracity of Hollywood movies (Terminator, for example) when they are in fact fiction and written for lucrative entertainment purposes.
The Reyes computer scandal is just about as believeable as the “alleged fact” that Osama bin Laden blew up the Twin Towers when Cheney said clearly from the White House in 2006 that there was no evidence to support this. However, CNN and Bloomberg continue to relate bin Laden to the terrorist attackk of 9/11.
It’s the same wit this amarillista BS. Chavez wanted his political opponents assassinated by the FARC. Well, invent something else to fill the newspapers. I guess it’s the same formula – the media as accuser, judge, jury and executioner.
And you will still lose the Decemebr 2012 election whatever lies you print and disseminate.
Sí vale, we’re such unsavvy people we believe insane propaganda lies, like Bin Laden having something to do with 9-11…es que no tenemos remedio, chico…
When the law is on your side, bang on the law. When the facts are on your side, bang on the facts. When nothing is on your side, find a troll to bang on the table.
Look, there can be little bits of doubt on any one piece of information on the laptops, but denying the laptops 100% is a lot like denying 9-11. Oh wait, you just did that. Never mind.
Am I reading correctly? This lacayo de Chavez is quoting (most likely out of context) Chaney as his most reliable source of information? La guerrilla comunicacional esta pistoneando.
I firmly believe that terminator came from the future and killed your intellect…
I figured you, Chris/Arturo/whatever, were a foreign shit disturber who finds any way possible to cash in on deliberate polarization, while calling attention to yourself. This crap from you just proves my assumption. It also points to your lack of mental equilibrium. And using a Dick Cheney quote to substantiate your cock-a-mamie reasoning and to bolster your barking up the wrong tree is, well … plop!
OT
Oh, and by the way, Francisco – Chavez has lost his influence in the region? Not according to the results of the referendum in Ecuador and the likely outcome of the Peruvian presidential elections…….now wipe the egg off your face…..again.
Bueno when other people feed the troll I yell at them, though I’m about to demonstrate why I’m in no actual position to cast the first stone:
Honestly, Arturo, I think in 2013 we’re going to have to ask for a Salvaguarda investigation of your writing here: whatever MINCI is paying you to post on this forum surely qualifies as malvesación de fondos.
If you’ll recall, my original contention was that Humala’s been forced by electoral calculation to distance himself so far from Chávez in the election – and go rushing into Lula-ism – that even if he won, he wouldn’t have the political capital to join the chavista coalition. Your thing here is pure non-sequitur: you’re refuting some weird argument nobody here ever made…
En serio, chamo, you’re just phoning it in at this point. We expect a higher standard of Orwellian obfuscation from our civil servants, y’know? Pq lo que lo jode a uno es que lo mojoneen con “el dinero de todos los venezolanos”.
Un poco de amor propio, vale, a bit of respect for the cosa-pública. There’s some mom in a barrio somewhere who can’t afford to send her kids to school because they spend the money for their becas paying you…to write this crap? Te debería dar pena, vale…
(I’ll go sit in the corner now…)
He’s here because of *your* increased “influence in the region”. ;)
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Me pareicei quei Chavecitou hace politica pesada.
Es decirte quei, hace todo lo que puede para politiquear.
Por lo demas, que tiene unai mision de perpetrarse lo mas,
quei pueda.
Eliminar una generacion vieja o anterior de gobierno es
ya casi una realidad.
Y una nueva o differente forma de ser se ha implantada.
LO UNICOU QUE le mantiene alli, es ayuda a pobres, la
nueva clase gobernantei, y militarismou !
Imaginese muchos con buen pago de retiro por avejes.
Esta gente pobre, muere con Chabez.
Por lo otros cosos/cosas muchos estan sufridos, y se les
hace dificil la vida de peligro, y falta de justicia.
jorgei.
Coincidence? For the last few days all the fanfare about home giveaways, then the day this is published –oops, a knee accident.
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Yes, the FARC have never been protected by Chavez, Ivan Marquez and Raul Reyes never went to Miraflores either, the pictures are photoshopped.
Quico, you are feeding the troll, the troll does not read you articles.
[sheepish]… so-rry…
I found interesting the assertion that it was the Disip, with FARC support, who conducted the bombings in Caracas back in 2002/2003. A bunch o people, mostly Plaza Altamira milicos, are sit in the big house for those bombs….
See, without access to the original docs, it’s hard to know if the bombs referred to are the ones that actually went off and sent those actual guys to the big house.
More fiction to believe in:
The latest thing you can believe is published in today’s Nuevo País, page 3 and taken from El Nuevo Herald in Miami. Title: “Fidel diseño el Caracaazo”.
Francisco – MINCI paying someone to troll here? At least give MINCI and Mr. Izarra credit for realizing that CC is not worth wasting money or manpower on.
virtok – here is the interview with Dick Cheney from March 29, 2006 being interviewed by Tony Snow. I hope you understand enough English to rrealize the imporance of what Cheney says. It puts to rest all the propaganda about bin Laden and 9/11 – except for naive people who want to belive the corporate lies spun every day on Fox, CNN and Bloomberg. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4646091253905495376#
I’m only stating facts, guys. Is stating facts trolling now since you cannot deny them?
Holy tapdancing Christ on a bike, you are an idiot.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/A_slip_of_the_tongue
Arturo,
I don’t usually watch CNN or Fox News. I watch German TV. I read what Robert Fisk (please, check out his videos on youtube or read his books, articles) or Scholl-Latour written about that. I watch Al Jazeera English. I have talked to countless Arabs – most Muslims, not just the Maronite group or Copts – and there is a big concensus: your theories are completely rubbish. I have also seen your sources. And they are really crap.
There are more sources than Fox News or your Roja-rojita Fox News.
arturito
not to defend quico who certainly does not need my help, but i cannot remember for the life of me him, or jc or miguel or myself or alek, or kepler, using el nuevo pais as any news reference. only chavistas transnochados get all their news from la hojilla and el nuevo pais for an (anti)balance of sorts….
Well, you have a golden opportunity to redeem yourself and admit that your “facts” were, as usual, a load of crapola…or you can decide to ignore it. Your call.
If CC is not worth manpower then what are you doing here, writing, reading, etc.?
setty – I am not denying 9/11. I am just pointing to a link to prove what Dick Cheney stated. It is not my opinion. These are facts so get used to it and stop being such a victim of the corporate media.
OK, OK…..now I’ll go and sit in the corner…
¡Huele a azufre esta obsesión con Cheney!
Arturo, SG pointed you to the full dialogue that took place between DC and TS. Yet, you decide to ignore it.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/A_slip_of_the_tongue
Anything else you have to prove your case? This just went down in flames.
Strangely enough… Chavismo has for years tried it to stick the opposition with the accusation of collaborating with Colombian paramilitaries. Going along with terrorism and assassinations, robbing and killing people to make the govt. look bad, etc. We should have known that chavismo was doing things like that. It’s their custom to be unimaginative and accuse the opposition of precisely what they are later caught doing.
Tongue in cheek: I believed that the old DISIP operative personnel would make wonderful compost. The SEBIN personnel, would have to be put in boreholes on deep ocean floor as a matter of safety and decorum. However, more seriously, is there a conceivable future in which Venezuelans present the whole outfit a huge pink slip? And make a Venezuela a better country just by NOT paying the salaries of really awful persons to indulge their sociopathic personalities?
Rodriguez Chacin must be proud. We knew him to be quite a rascal. But even his pals find him without peer and beyond reproach. A Bandit Among Bandits, a scoundrel of scoundrels.
C´mon. You all know better than this. Cheney’s “slip of the tingue” revealed the truth since we all know that the US government created its new Paerl habor based on the plan laid out in the document “Project for the New American Century”..
The actual news source, Daniel Duquenal, was El Nuevo Herald; it was merely reprinted in El Nuevo País. Read the comment I wrote.
loboferoz – yes, the opposition was involved with importing 130 paramilitaries to the finca Daktari belonging to Roberto whatever his name is. And the person who was identified as paying off the National Guard when the buses passed through Venezuela was Rafael Marin, one of the adeco old guard. Marin vanished into thin air after that episode . The opposition has no moption but to import paramilitaries since it cannot win power electorally. And that’s a 12 year fact!
Arturo,
Listen to this. You really are selective, aren’t you? You want to stick to that, you won’t comment Robert Fisk, will you?
By the way: he is a friend of Chomsky, so in your mind the friend of a friend is always a friend and the enemy of your friend is your enemy.
Geez Kepler, that clip is tremendous, scary and insightful.! I had never heard of Robert Fisk before. Thanks for sharing.
This Fisk interview , is quite sorry really.Then again, the state of journalism in general, leaves much to be desired.Few people are actually qualified to be so dangerously opinionated.One thing is to have an opinion on events, the other to be so certain of other people’s motivations.
Fisk says”I won’t let Arab murders change my world.” This is a counter phobic response.When we are unable to accept our own fear we have this attitude of refusal.This is the mentality of bungee jumpers and dare devils.Hitler also had this same problem on a much larger scale of course: it is a tough guy response to hide fear or to deny its proper and useful impact.
Then he assumes he knows why Cheney was motivated in the way that he was( is he psychic?) while he imitates those with whom he disagrees, imitating a dramatically ugly and aggressive voice.This shows much emotionalism and lack of detachment in presentation.What Fisk’s motivation is I don’t know , but the effect absolutely ridicules those with whom he disagrees.
One thing is to look for a motive and another thing is to assume you have it, at some point his viewpoint has to be proven or it becomes just damaging slander and propaganda for his own personal slant.It would appear that his status lets him opt out of this obligation.
The most silly thing he said was:
“To lie to others is normal but to lie to yourself( “or persuade yourself that your lies are the truth is unbelievable”) …this is quite a queer statement given that if someone is not aware of their lies as lies then they are not proper lies in themselves.It is not unbelievable or strange to do so, it is the most common of all behaviors really.Self deception is what we all indulge in on a daily basis, but usually we don’t just signal out others for that honor.
A highly manipulative and fearful man.
Firepigette, Godwin…Godwin…oh, do you know her already?
Sigh.
Manipulative who? Fearful who? Give me a break…you don’t want people to discuss things. You are the one who is fearful, utterly fearful.
I present here somebody who is not thinking in those wee boxes where you claim not think.
Firepigette, use arguments. Thanks.
Anyway, any further discussion on this is OT, I gave him the link. You must be very pissed off. Never mind. Cheers.
I agree with FP. That Fisk is so full of himself that his EGO overrides any message he is trying so hard to impart (and isn’t he Mr. wonderful, so full of knowledge, far more than anyone else. Or so he thinks). What a little Brit prig. I’ll pass. Let him impress the juniors.
A very senior spoke, one who has seen it all, knows it all and comes up as fresh, humble and open. Above all: one who uses arguments.
By the way: there are much better videos with him but that’s the one I found in a jiffy where he was concretely referring to Osama. Anyway: he has written plenty and he like another one you will probably consider also “full of himself”, German conservative Scholl-Latour, have been incredibly right in predicting a lot of what happened. I would compare US media (CNN and yes, the most honorable newspapers there, not to mention Fox) and what old Fisk and Scholl-Latour were saying in 2001 and I couldn’t believe how simplistic the US media was on the Middle East.
And there you have your WMD. And there you have the scandals from the CIA agent who was exposed by Cheney because her husband, former ambassador, explained how wrong the Africa-Iraq connection was and there you have that US Americans were not precisely received as liberators after the first day.
And then US Americans can’t understand.
To conclude: it is precisely guys like these the US media needs. They present a counter-balance. The funny thing is that a guy like Fisk does not need to talk in continental Europe in “lefty circles”. In the English world, specially in English America, apparently only the very left can hear him.
Chauvinism trumps.
Very unfortunately, it seems in Venezuela people with Internet access are having to choose between CNN/FOX NEWs (not so much different, really) and VTV/Russian TV in English on the other side.
Besides some kool-aid drinkers and some DISIP thugs jamming the only road to Sartenejas and looking all important… Do you have a shred of evidence to show?
Besides 130 UNARMED (if you don’t count the “cachitos”, stuffed pastries with ham…), VERY CONFUSED COLOMBIAN PEASANTS IN A BUS?
It does not quite measure up to one very dead FARC Secretariat member (and some 20 of his own men) in a FARC camp, the computers and other materiel captured, Interpol certification, and IISS publication, you know…
“The opposition has no moption but to import paramilitaries since it cannot win power electorally. And that’s a 12 year fact!”
Unlike your POS leader Chavez, we don’t need no stinkin badges, or guns, or paramilitaries to make our point and win next year.
All we need is bravery and common sense. With those two we will bury Chavez’ project so deep the Chinese will wonder where all the shit came from.
Pack your bags, R2D2. You’re going on a long trip down memory lane.
Actually, I found Marin:
En serio chamo, when you’re in a hole, stop digging.
No, no, he’ll dig his way out!
Hope he is near the Rio de la Plata estuary. He will emerge reasonably near Pyongyang.
Well if this whole shilling for Chávez thing doesn’t pan out for him, he could always tell Westerners about Dear Leader.
Not like any North Koreans will call him out on his bullshit, either.